hate jokes

myindustrialvagina:

realsocialskills:

Do you have any tips on how to figure out who is trustworthy and who is not? As in whether or not someone intends to cause harm to you, etc. I find that I never realize I’m being mistreated until it’s too late, and it makes it really hard for me to find good friend, especially IRL. Advice/tips?
realsocialskills said:
Here are some things I consider to be red flags:
Having a strong self-image as not being the kind of person who does bad things:
  • We all do bad things, even awful things, from time to time
  • People who think that they’re “not that kind of person” actively avoid noticing when they’ve done bad things
  • People who deal with one another regularly hurt one another from time to time, and it’s important to be able to acknowledge this and fix things
  • If you’re dealing with someone who can’t bear the thought of having done something wrong, you’re not going to be able to tell them when they’ve hurt you
  • Because they will blow up at you and hurt you worse when you try, or else they’ll cry and convince you that you’re a terrible person for making mean baseless accusations.
  • Either way, it will make it impossible to deal with problems, and you’ll end up tolerating things that hurt you badly
  • I wrote about that some here
Expecting immediate trust
  • Trust is developed over time
  • If someone wants you to talk about deeply personal things right away, and gets upset when you don’t, they’re not respecting your boundaries and that’s dangerous
Asserting that a deeply intimate relationship exists without considering your opinion on the matter relevant
  • Close friendship only exists if you *both* think it does
  • You are only dating if *both* of you think that you are dating
  • Someone can’t just decide that they’re close to you and that you have a deep close committed relationship; you both have to want it
  • If someone considers your opinion of the matter irrelevant, run.
  • I wrote a post about that here 

Wanting you to depend on them

  • If someone tells you that you couldn’t function without them, do not trust them
  • If they want you to fix your life, do not trust them
  • If they think your sanity depends on their loving understanding care, *seriously* do not trust them
  • If they get angry, or hurt, or cry when you don’t do what they want you to do in your personal life, don’t trust them

Being under the impression that they’re doing you a favor:

  • If they think that they’re doing you a favor by being friends with someone like you, they’re not likely to treat you well
  • Friendship is not a charitable act. It is a mutual relationship between people who regard one another as equals.
  • Similarly, when someone thinks they’re doing you a favor by employing you, it will probably end badly

If people you trust dislike them:

  • If you have people you know to be trustworthy, and they don’t like a new person in your life, it’s important to find out why
  • Sometimes they will be wrong, but often they will be right
  • It’s important to figure out what’s going on, and why they think that — then if you disagree that’s fine, but it’s not a good idea to dismiss it without thinking about it

I’ve also written a lot of posts relevant to this issue. It might help you to read through my abuse tag and my boundaries tag and my red flags tag.

myindustrialvagina said:

and also

1) people who suddenly take a shine to you out of nowhere then always need stuff (physical things like money or car rides) 

2) people who cannot deal with confrontation under any circumstances and either refuse to talk to you about your concerns or constantly change the subject or make it your fault

3) people who discuss others esp talking bad about them, because i guarantee they’ll do the same thing to you as well

realsocialskills said:

Yes, although talking bad is a somewhat misleading way to put it. Because people who’ve been mistreated a lot might have really legitimate reasons to say bad things about others.

I’d say it this way:

  • If someone violates confidences without any apparent reason, they will probably violate yours
  • If someone doesn’t seem to respect anyone they talk about, they probably don’t respect you either
  • If they go out of their way to humiliate other people, or talk about others in degrading terms, that’s a serious red flag

Also, if they tell hate jokes (eg: racist/sexist/antisemitic/disability hate/mocking children or old people) or use racial slurs, that’s a red flag for being untrustworthy. (And for being someone who is likely to make *you* less trustworthy for members of the groups they’re mocking).

The racist ice cream joke you just posted about can also be swung in the direction of sexual harassment. When kids found out my friend and I were lesbians, they would torment us with similar jokes just to get us to “admit” to liking dick. I still don’t understand why jokes like that could be funny to anyone.
realsocialskills said:
Yes, that’s another really common kind of hate joke. I have some theories about why people tell jokes like that, but they’re not yet well-formed enough to explain outside my head.

Hate joke example

whiteandmildblr:

realsocialskills:

When I was in middle school there was a racist ‘personality quiz’ joke that was framed as an innocent question, “Which would you rather have: vanilla or chocolate ice cream?” If you said you like chocolate better, it meant you preferred oral sex with a black boy. Trust me, white girls quickly changed their answers when they realized what the implication was.
realsocialskills said:
Wow, that’s horrible. And it’s a particularly clear example of a hate joke. (I bet most of those same girls vehemently denied that they could ever have any racist attitudes.)

whiteandmildblr said:

Or maybe they aren’t attracted to blacks?

realsocialskills said:

The point of that hate joke is to sexually humiliate women by insinuating that they are attracted to black men. That’s racist. (And also misogynist.)

The whole power of that joke rests on the perception that there’s a “right” answer, and that no one would ever willingly answer the question “wrong”.

Everyone has sexual and romantic preferences. This hate joke isn’t about expressing preferences in a neutral way. It’s about expressing contempt for black men, and for women who are attracted to black men.

Hate jokes suck.

Hate joke example (a reply)

Hate joke example

 

realsocialskills:

Content warning: This post is an example of a racist hate joke. Some of y’all might be better off skipping this one.

Anonymous asked realsocialskills:

When I was in middle school there was a racist ‘personality quiz’ joke that was framed as an innocent question, “Which would you rather have: vanilla or chocolate ice cream?” If you said you like chocolate better, it meant you preferred oral sex with a black boy. Trust me, white girls quickly changed their answers when they realized what the implication was.

realsocialskills said:

Wow, that’s horrible. And it’s a particularly clear example of a hate joke. (I bet most of those same girls vehemently denied that they could ever have any racist attitudes.)

whiteandmildblr said:

Or maybe they aren’t attracted to blacks?

realsocialskills said:

The point of that hate joke is to sexually humiliate women by insinuating that they are attracted to black men. That’s racist. (And also misogynist.)

The whole power of that joke rests on the perception that there’s a “right” answer, and that no one would ever willingly answer the question “wrong”.

Everyone has sexual and romantic preferences. This hate joke isn’t about expressing preferences in a neutral way. It’s about expressing contempt for black men, and for women who are attracted to black men.

Hate jokes suck.

Hate joke example

Content warning: This post is an example of a racist hate joke. Some of y'all might be better off skipping this one.

Anonymous asked realsocialskills:

When I was in middle school there was a racist ‘personality quiz’ joke that was framed as an innocent question, “Which would you rather have: vanilla or chocolate ice cream?” If you said you like chocolate better, it meant you preferred oral sex with a black boy. Trust me, white girls quickly changed their answers when they realized what the implication was.

realsocialskills said:

Wow, that’s horrible. And it’s a particularly clear example of a hate joke. (I bet most of those same girls vehemently denied that they could ever have any racist attitudes.)

Something white people need to stop doing

A lot of times, white people call things or people racist as a joke or a generic insult. For instance:

  • In response to someone expressing a preference for white shoes over black shoes
  • In response to someone saying something that offends them for some unrelated reason
  • In response to expressing connection to a particular ethnicity
  • In response to mentioning that white people are white and it matters

It’s not ok to do this because:

  • Jokes like that work by assuming that calling someone or something racist is inherently absurd
  • Which rests on the assumption that there is never a *real* need to call someone or something racist, because it rests on the assumption that real racism is over except for a few fringe groups with no power
  • But racism is still a problem, and it still does tremendous harm to people of color

Using “racist” as a joke or generic insult sends the message that you refuse to acknowledge that racism is still a problem. It sends the message that you have contempt for people who point out racism. Don’t do that.

faunils:

realsocialskills:

childrens-crusade:

realsocialskills:

joephish:

Jaded Things: Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

realsocialskills:

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the following subjects are usually considered dirty (some of these jokes are…

So long story short, don’t tell dirty jokes to people you aren’t really good friends with. And don’t tell racist/sexist/*ist jokes in general if you want to have friends.

Actually, telling racist/sexist/ableist/etc hate jokes isn’t necessarily socially isolating. It can be a very effective way to bond with some people. It can even be socially isolating to refuse, if you’re around a lot of people who really like telling those jokes.

It’s bad to tell hate jokes. But the reason it’s bad isn’t that it will make you unpopular. The reason hate jokes are wrong is that it’s wrong to hurt other people for your own entertainment.

As a person who has stated my discomfort with ableist/sexist/racist/etc jokes, I have experienced this alienation firsthand many times.  All I can say is that the alienation was, in the end, worth it, because it made the other people aware of my comfort zone, and made me aware of some aspects of their character.  They also learnt that some jokes can be and are hurtful for others. 

The alienation resulting from objecting to hate jokes also often has a major upside. It can separate you from people you’re really better off not being close to.

And it can also create space for friends with other people. If you’re hanging around the folks who tell hate jokes, it makes it hard to be friends with the kinds of people they tell hate jokes about. (Or even just people who don’t like those jokes).

It doesn’t always work out that way, but it can and often does.

YES this.

When I was at university, there was this one guy who I liked talking to when waiting for classes, going to the train station etc. Not a friend, just a classmate I liked to hang out with and share jokes. It was wierdly important to me that he find me cool.

But one day I overheard him talking with another guy and making a r*pe joke. I called him out on it and shouted at him that that shit is not okay. He tried to defend himself (“it was just a joke!”), but from that point onward I knew that he wasn’t a cool, fun guy but a disgusting misogynist and I never talked to him again and just speared him with my disapproving stares henceforth.

And I lived happily ever after.

I find that asking people to explain “hate jokes" can work in two situations. One is if the person hasn’t really thought through the implications of the joke themselves. Sometimes people who don’t belong to the group the joke is targeting seem to get that it’s a “dirty" joke and tell it because they want to tell a dirty joke, but they honestly haven’t thought about the effect on the target group. If you ask them to explain it - especially if you have some kind of friendly relationship with them and belong to the target group - they’ll often realize why the joke is problematic, apologize, and hopefully think harder in the future. 

The other is basically when someone is telling this kind of joke in public to communicate hateful things about a group while trying to remain “socially acceptable", and it would NOT be socially acceptable for them to state the prejudices and assumptions behind their joke in an overt way. Essentially trying to prevent someone from expressing hate without taking responsibility for it - in theory they’ll either have to stop telling the jokes or admit to the opinions they hold. 

This can work - if you have a good idea of what the person’s intentions are behind the joke and you won’t be unsafe if the person gets angry at you when they interpret your questions as a criticism of their actions. Especially in the second case, I wouldn’t expect the person to believe you actually didn’t understand the joke.

That makes sense.

childrens-crusade:

realsocialskills:

joephish:

Jaded Things: Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

realsocialskills:

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the following subjects are usually considered dirty (some of these jokes are…

So long story short, don’t tell dirty jokes to people you aren’t really good friends with. And don’t tell racist/sexist/*ist jokes in general if you want to have friends.

Actually, telling racist/sexist/ableist/etc hate jokes isn’t necessarily socially isolating. It can be a very effective way to bond with some people. It can even be socially isolating to refuse, if you’re around a lot of people who really like telling those jokes.

It’s bad to tell hate jokes. But the reason it’s bad isn’t that it will make you unpopular. The reason hate jokes are wrong is that it’s wrong to hurt other people for your own entertainment.

As a person who has stated my discomfort with ableist/sexist/racist/etc jokes, I have experienced this alienation firsthand many times.  All I can say is that the alienation was, in the end, worth it, because it made the other people aware of my comfort zone, and made me aware of some aspects of their character.  They also learnt that some jokes can be and are hurtful for others. 

The alienation resulting from objecting to hate jokes also often has a major upside. It can separate you from people you’re really better off not being close to.

And it can also create space for friends with other people. If you’re hanging around the folks who tell hate jokes, it makes it hard to be friends with the kinds of people they tell hate jokes about. (Or even just people who don’t like those jokes).

It doesn’t always work out that way, but it can and often does.

eggsnemesis:

realsocialskills:

quixylvre:

Social skills for autonomous people: joephish: Jaded Things: Some things I think I know about dirty…

joephish:

Jaded Things: Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

realsocialskills:

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the…

Tip: Instead of saying you take offense when you actually are offended, repeatedly claim to not “get" or understand the joke, and insist that the person who told the joke explain why it’s funny. It FORCES them to admit to the ugly prejudice/cruelty at the joke’s core and makes THEM look INsensitive without making you look “thin-skinned".

I’ve heard this advice a lot but I’ve never tried it or seen it done. Have any of y’all used this successfully?

I tried a version of this with a stranger who was making anti-semetic jokes and he treated me increasingly condescendingly and even angrily attempting to explain it before switching to jokes about ukrainians so I got up and walked away. 

I’ve never tried it before with a non-stranger (or with someone who I couldn’t just walk away from), maybe a friend or co-worker is less likely to react with hostility?

I don’t know. I could see that playing out either way.

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I’ve tried that strategy of pretending not to get racist/offensive jokes… in my experience it doesn’t work. It just leads to earnest explanations of why the stereotypes in the joke are true. With my coworker whose entire joke repertoire was offensive, I never did find a strategy that worked. I let him know repeatedly that I wanted him to stop, and he wouldn’t. All I could do to stop it was walk away (which with my job wasn’t always possible.) I quickly got a rep for being “stuck up.” :/
I suspect that this strategy might work sometimes when you’re dealing with people who aren’t intentionally being hateful. Some people think it’s ok to tell hate jokes because they don’t really think the hate counts if it’s in joke form. Maybe making those people have to notice what they’re doing works.
Other people are telling those jokes because they’re *intentionally* being racist/misogynist/otherwise hateful. So pointing out that they’re being hateful isn’t going to help - they know that, and they’re doing it on purpose.

joephish:

Jaded Things: Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

realsocialskills:

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the following subjects are usually considered dirty (some of these jokes are…

So long story short, don’t tell dirty jokes to people you aren’t really good friends with. And don’t tell racist/sexist/*ist jokes in general if you want to have friends.

Actually, telling racist/sexist/ableist/etc hate jokes isn’t necessarily socially isolating. It can be a very effective way to bond with some people. It can even be socially isolating to refuse, if you’re around a lot of people who really like telling those jokes.

It’s bad to tell hate jokes. But the reason it’s bad isn’t that it will make you unpopular. The reason hate jokes are wrong is that it’s wrong to hurt other people for your own entertainment.

Some things I think I know about dirty jokes

This post I think is not quite right. It’s something I know a bit about, but there are parts I don’t understand too. Anyway, here are some things I think I know about dirty jokes.

Jokes about the following subjects are usually considered dirty (some of these jokes are relatively innocuous):

  • Sex
  • Masturbation
  • Genitals
  • Breasts
  • Defecation
  • Urination
  • Vomiting
  • Drinking alcohol
  • Doing drugs
  • These jokes can be good or bad, it depends on the joke, and the context in which it is told. 

Rude jokes that are dirty because they deal with impolite subject matter can be ok to tell in some circumstances, but not others:

There are three basic situations in which these jokes are usually ok:

  • People who are social equals and have an equal friendship, and both like telling rude jokes to one another, or:
  • People in a profession that deals with impolite areas, making trade-related jokes to colleagues (eg: people who work concert security making jokes to one another about bodily functions and weird things people do at shows) 
  • When someone is doing a comedy routine and other people are listening to it on purpose

It’s almost always a bad idea to tell rude jokes to people you have power over:

  • Partly this is because it’s not ok to tell rude jokes to people who dislike rude jokes. And people you have power over might not feel comfortable or safe telling you to stop.
  • It’s also threatening in a few ways that go beyond this.
  • Telling rude jokes is a sign that you regard someone as a social equal, and emphatically expect that they share that view
  • This can be a sign that you aren’t willing to acknowledge the power you have over them. That’s threatening.
  • It can also be sexually threatening. The rules about dirty jokes are part of the rules about sexual boundaries. Telling a dirty joke in an inappropriate contexts is often the first step a sexual predator takes in testing someone’s willingness to enforce sexual boundaries. Even if you have no such intent, telling a rude joke, especially a sexual rude joke, can be seen this way.
  • That’s especially true if when someone objects to the joke, you tell them to lighten up because it was just a joke.

There’s also another kind of dirty joke: the hate joke. Hate jokes are about hurting people. Hate jokes say bad things about other groups, or express violent desires, then make somewhat more socially acceptable by phrasing it as a joke:

  • Jokes that contain slur words are usually, but not always, hate jokes
  • Jokes that rely on asserting that stereotypes are true are usually hate jokes
  • For instance, dumb blonde jokes. 
  • Or “ironic” racism (eg: telling a racist joke, where the joke is that it’s so hilarious that someone who is so not-racist would say such a thing)
  • Some hate jokes are explicitly violent.
  • Here’s an example of a joke glorifying violence towards women with physical disabilities, in scrambled text that can be decoded at decode.org. The end of this block of scrambled text says “scrambled text ends here”.
  • N thl vf wbttvat qbja gur ornpu jura ur pbzrf npebff guvf ornhgvshy tvey fvggvat va n jurrypunve pelvat ure rlrf bhg. Fybjvat qbja ur nfxf ure, “Jung'f jebat?” “V'ir arire orra xvffrq orsber,” fur fbof. Srryvat onqyl, ur yrnaf qbja, xvffrf ure naq pbagvahrf ba uvf jnl. Ba uvf jnl onpx ur frrf gur fnzr tvey fboovat rira uneqre. Ur gevrf uneq abg gb fubj uvf rknfcrengvba. “Jung'f gur znggre abj?” ur nfxf ure. “V'ir arire orra fperjrq orsber rvgure,” fur fbof. Ur tenof gur unaqyrf bs ure jurrypunve, chfurf ure qbja gur obneqjnyx naq bss gur cvre. “Abj lbh'er fperjrq,” ur lryyf nsgre ure. Scrambled text ends here.
  • That kind of joke normalizes violence. The violent abuser in that joke is the sympathetic character.
  • Hate jokes are only ok when it’s actually ok to hate the people the joke is about. That’s almost never the case. But sometimes hate jokes about an abuser, or general hate jokes about rapists, can be ok jokes to make.
  • There’s a difference between telling hate jokes with the intent of harming members of the target group, and telling hate jokes without active ill intent because you think they’re funny. But it’s a difference of degree, not kind.
  • Sometimes members of target groups tell hate jokes as a form of self-hatred. That’s also a difference of degree
  • Sometimes members of the target groups tell hate jokes as a way of mocking the way people hate them. This is a difference of kind, not degree.

Basically, the bottom line is that it still matters what you’re saying if you’re making a joke while you’re saying it.